Борис Немцов: Лично я геев не понимаю, я люблю женщин!

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Борис Немцов: Лично я геев не понимаю, я люблю женщин!  

 

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Бори́с Ефи́мович Немцо́в (род. 9 октября 1959, Сочи) – российский политик, государственный и общественный деятель, бизнесмен. Заместитель председателя правительства России в 19971998 годах. Член Бюро Федерального политсовета Объединенного демократического движения «Солидарность» (с 2008 г.).

 

− Борис Ефимович, сейчас много говорят о кризисе либерализма в России. Но не кажется ли Вам, что правые сами виноваты в том, что за них перестали голосовать?

– В России всегда был профицит рабства и дефицит свободы. У нас в почете холуйство, и поэтому Россия до сих пор «страна рабов, страна господ». В России так много талантливых людей, но возможности реализовать себя отсутствуют. Я считаю, что успех неразрывно связан с личной свободой, это ключ к успеху.

Допускали ли мы ошибки? Конечно да. Мы не смогли на простом русском языке четко объяснить, за  что и против чего мы собираемся бороться. В девяностые годы на это не было времени, а после к власти пришла группировка, которая ненавидит свободу, не терпит критики и боится конкуренции. Она решила все экономические сложности страны списать на демократию и свободу, манипулируя историческими фактами.

Наша ошибка была в том, что мы не объяснили и уступили власть. Но это не значит, что надо посыпать голову пеплом и ничего не делать дальше.

 

− Вам был понятен мотив отказа Явлинского от объединения с СПС?

– Мне совершенно это непонятно ни тогда, ни сейчас. Я считаю, что сектантство в политике – это путь в могилу. Политика не всегда приятное дело, не всегда в ней партнеры и коллеги вызывают симпатии. Для меня очевидно, что разобщенность демократов – одна из причин того состояния, в котором оказалась страна. Именно поэтому мы и создали «Солидарность», чтобы преодолеть разобщенность.

 

− Была ли, по-Вашему, ошибкой демонстрация правыми богатства в те же 90-е годы? Вспомните ролики с Чубайсом – роскошный самолет, красивые дорогие автомобили…

– Это была ошибка.

 

− Правые привлекали предпринимателей лозунгами о свободе предпринимательства. Почему же сегодня бизнесмены стройными колоннами вступают в «Единую Россию», которая не страдает либеральными идеями?

– Бизнес устроен очень прагматично. Люди понимают, что зарабатывать деньги в конфликте с властью сложнее. Они борются не за наши права, а за денежные знаки. Они ведут себя прагматично, и у меня к ним никаких претензий нет.

Только самые умные и дальновидные бизнесмены понимают, что существующий конгломерат бизнеса и коррумпированной бюрократии – путь в никуда, в том числе и для их собственного бизнеса. Таких людей в стране немного, остальные идут в эту партию, чтобы зарабатывать. «Единая Россия» – это партия коррумпированной бюрократии и бизнеса, в первую очередь крупного бизнеса. У этой партии нет идеологии, как у КПСС. У нее нет политических задач, кроме как сохранить власть и деньги. Она цинична, как и ее лидер. Помните, как Путин обещал прислать Зюзину врача, а потом не прислал? Знаете почему? Потому что «Мечел» – крупнейший спонсор «Единой России».

 

− Получается, что те бизнесмены, которые вступили в «Единую Россию», – рабы?

– Они не рабы, у них просто другие задачи. Они глубоко презирают эту партию, и я не совсем уверен, что они голосуют за нее на выборах.  Голосование за эту партию свидетельствует о низком интеллектуальном уровне. Они используют возможность заработать больше денег, потому что успех бизнесмена – это прибыль.

 

− А совесть не входит в критерии российского бизнеса?

– Я не очень понимаю, как бизнесмены учитывают тему совести. Для них имеет значение репутация, она, в принципе, очень важна и является залогом успеха.  Главный критерий успешности бизнесмена – деньги.

Более того, совесть не входит в критерии не только российского бизнеса, во всем мире бизнесмены не считают этот критерий важным. Другое дело, что умные бизнесмены считают, что надо иметь достойную репутацию, чтобы потом не краснеть.

 

− Президент проводит встречи как с партиями, представленными в Думе, так и не прошедшими в нее. Есть ли у либеральной оппозиции какие-нибудь контакты с Кремлем?

– Нет. Мы – несистемная оппозиция, мы самостоятельные, и в Кремле нас считают главными политическими врагами. Мы не находимся ни в каком диалоге с Кремлем. Они тратят на борьбу с нами огромные деньги, в ФСБ создано спецподразделение для борьбы с нами.  На примере выборов мэра Сочи  видно, как они «кошмарят» бизнесменов, которые готовы нас поддержать.

   Мы идеологические антиподы. Путин и его бригада знают, что Россия – страна рабов и господ, где народ не дозрел ни до выборов, ни читать независимую прессу и иметь независимый суд. Они считают, что Россия глубоко азиатская страна. Мы сделаны из другого теста и считаем, что Россия – европейская страна.

Надо понимать, что диалог  возможен только на равных, но они считают, что все должны ползать перед ними на коленях и пресмыкаться. От нас они этого не дождутся.

 

− Если Вам поверить, то может создаться впечатление, что в России политика − кукольный театр какой-то…

– За годы правления Путина политика уничтожена. У нас нет парламента, нет Совета Федерации, нет избранных губернаторов, нет независимого телевидения. Все политическое поле вытоптано, и посредине стоит столп с национальным лидером.

В этом одна из причин того, почему Россия так тяжело переживает кризис. Спад производительности в промышленности – 17 процентов, ВВП упал на 10,5, а дефицит  бюджета – сто миллионов долларов. Это итог политики Путина по выжиганию политической поляны.

 

− Но если политика кукольная, то, может быть, и оппозиция такая же?

– Кукольная – это ручная. Мы не ручные и не кукольные. Ни финансово, ни идеологически мы от них не зависим.

 

− Как Вы считаете, почему в России не могут прижиться европейские ценности?

– Давайте конкретно, а не абстрактно, о каких ценностях идет речь? Каждый человек имеет право на жизнь, свободу, выборы, информацию, независимый суд. Права человека являются важнейшей ценностью, и задача государства, чтобы люди были свободными и счастливыми. Назовите мне хотя бы одну ценность, о которой можно спорить?

 

− Тот же пресловутый гей-парад, который поддерживают западные депутаты и который лоббируется политическими деятелями Европы.

– Это не ценность, а право людей отстаивать крайне непопулярную и провокационную точку зрения. Лично я геев не понимаю, я люблю женщин. Тем не менее я считаю, что не надо запрещать то, чем они там занимаются.  В конце концов, если мне что-то непонятно, то это не должно быть запрещено.

Вместо того чтобы запрещать гей-парады, я провел бы парад натуралов и возглавил бы его. Это было бы внушительное шествие красивых мужчин и красивых женщин. И тогда гей-парад смотрелся бы как комедия. Вместо этого устраивают конфликты, нагоняют ОМОН зачем-то туда, где он должен был состояться.

Права геев – это не европейская ценность. Европейская ценность состоит в том, что права меньшинств надо защищать.

 

− Какое будущее, по-Вашему, у Америки? Многие считают, что именно она виновата в нынешнем кризисе.

– Америка удивительно живучая страна, потому что ее основа – это личная инициатива, конкуренция и свобода.

 

− Но кризис начался с нее…

– Америка пережила десятки кризисов и войн и всегда выбиралась из этого. Если сравнивать нынешний кризис и Великую депрессию, то это как насморк и СПИД.

У них работает социальный лифт, каждый человек, даже рожденный черным, может стать президентом. Если ты умный, то рано или поздно в Америке ты добьешься успеха. Если ты энергичный, то заработаешь денег. Это страна, где шанс есть у каждого человека. Не все его используют, но он есть у всех. Посмотрите на судьбу Билла Гейтса, Шварценеггера, Барака Обамы, Шэрон Стоун, Джулии Робертс. Они  все родились в обычных семьях и многого добились в жизни.

Несмотря на то что в Америке гигантский дефицит бюджета, последствия кризиса сказываются у нас больнее, чем в США. Там спад промышленности составил три процента, а у нас – десять.

 

− Но почему же Америке можно быть империей, а России нельзя?

– В чем ее имперкость?  В том, что по всему миру понастроили «Макдоналдсы»?

 

− Почему чуть ли не весь мир стал зоной жизненных интересов США?

– Потому что это самая мощная в экономическом плане держава. В Америке живут триста миллионов человек, это всего пять процентов всего населения земного шара. Но при этом США производят четверть мирового ВВП. Если ты самый богатый и мощный, то несешь ответственность за происходящее.

Россия производит два с половиной процента мирового ВВП. В десять раз меньше Америки. Понятно, что хочется быть империей, но для начала надо подтянуться в экономическом плане.

Я не думаю, что у Обамы есть задача создать всемирную империю Соединенных Штатов. С другой стороны, как ему быть, если сумасшедший Ким Чен Ир делает ядерную бомбу и запускает ракеты, летящие в разные стороны?

Американская экспансия носит больше бизнес-технологический характер. Почему во всем мире компьютеры с программой «виндус»?  Кто виноват, что в Америке инновационная политика? Я  не защищаю Америку, просто объясняю, почему она такая.

Посмотрим на великие открытия. Автомобиль сделан в Америке, самолет придумали братья Райт, компьютер тоже сделали в Америке, как и телевизор, и  первую электрическую лампочку. Все значимые открытия сделаны в этой стране, потому что главная ее движущая сила – конкуренция. Мы можем завидовать или обижаться, но вот они создали великую страну. Нам, вместо того чтобы ревновать, надо тоже создавать великую страну с инновационной экономикой.

Уверяю вас, если бы у нас ВВП был такой же, как у Америки, то вопросов об империи вообще не существовало бы. Империя вещь дорогая, а у нас дефицит бюджета сто миллиардов. У нас нет денег на империю. Хорошо это или плохо, но сегодня США – единственная сверхдержава.

 

− В конце восьмидесятых – начале девяностых мы уже слышали: не надо ничего изобретать, посмотрите на Запад и – делайте как они…

– Надо на Западе перенимать не «Макдоналдсы», от которых люди толстеют и пухнут, а конкуренцию и свободу. А мы только говно перенимаем, а хорошее не замечаем.

 

− Зато в девяностые  права человека еще перенимали.

– Вы считаете, что если отменить права человека, тогда и жить  будет лучше? Ни в одной стране, которая динамично развивается, не пренебрегают правами человека.

Есть такой «золотой миллиард», это успешные страны, которые живут без насилия и где есть мощный средний класс. В странах «золотого миллиарда» права человека, законность и демократия  считаются главными ценностями. Хотите войти в «золотой миллиард», в клуб богатых и процветающих, тогда, будьте добры, не про Америку говорите, а про общечеловеческие ценности.

  Кстати, если говорить о правах человека, то  по их соблюдению Америка занимает не первое место, оно – в Европе. Я считаю, что именно права человека – ключ к успеху для России. Девяностые годы были тяжелыми, мы были в реанимации. Коммунисты развалили нам страну до основания, до талонов, до дефицита, до отсутствия денег в казне. Горбачев в последние годы СССР закупал по тридцать миллионов тонн зерна, чтобы мы не пухли с голоду.

 

− В девяностые была свобода слова, но в итоге к власти пришли те, кто пришел...

– Путь к свободе тернист и долог. Вы думаете, если вам разрешили говорить все, что вы думаете, у вас наполнятся кошельки деньгами? «В начале было Слово». Евреи сорок лет ходили по пустыне, чтобы забыть рабство. Нам, вместо того чтобы сворачивать права человека, надо идти другой дорогой.

 

− Вы были и губернатором, и вице-премьером, и депутатом Думы. Где интереснее быть – во власти или в оппозиции?

– Жизнь вообще прекрасна во всех ее проявлениях. Я везде нахожу для себя яркие стороны. Хотя быть в оппозиции дело не очень приятное и небезопасное.

И все-таки самые яркие у меня воспоминания от времени, когда я был нижегородским губернатором!

 

Андрей Морозов


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